CMV: The US has a moral imperative to try to take Greenland so that Europe *finally* unites militarily and the US can fu
I know this sounds like MAGA brain poisoning. Hear me out.
**The core claim:** The US needs to pivot to Asia to deter China. Europe needs to take responsibility for its own defense. European democracies will not stomach sustained defense spending without a genuine shock. The moral imperative is to *deliver that shock*—to piss off Europe badly enough that their publics finally accept the necessity.
The goal isn't necessarily to acquire Greenland. The goal is to force European strategic autonomy. If Europe gets its act together in time to stop us, that *also works*. It would mean Europe has finally developed the will and capacity to act.
**Biden diagnosed this problem thirty years ago.**
Senator Biden, December 13, 1995, on the Senate floor during the Bosnia debate:
>Europe Has No Moral Center! -- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wdn8elgBRM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wdn8elgBRM)
He argued that unless America intervened in Bosnia, war would spread across Europe in the next decade. He noted that 25 million Russians lived outside Russia's borders. He warned that the collapse of the Soviet empire had uncovered "all of the ethnic hatreds, all of the ethnic fighting, all of the atr
Ismail Ćidić: Jedan od najboljih govora koje ćete ikada čuti (poslušajte do kraja i podijelite)!Nedavno mi je na Dukeu odobren prijedlog za…
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Putting bias aside, this solves one problem while creating another which makes the reaction pretty predictable Feels like an opening move, not an ending. That’s just my read on it.
From the outside, the signal is clear, the strategy less so That’s what makes this interesting. Let’s see what happens next.
Honestly, the signal is clear, the strategy less so That’s the key detail here.
the wording alone shifts how people read this and that’s where people will push back Feels like there’s more coming here.
this feels rushed rather than thought through and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone That’s the key detail here. Curious how this plays out. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
From the outside, this solves one problem while creating another so the response doesn’t surprise me That’s what makes this interesting. Interested to see the follow-up. That’s the impression it gives me.
If you zoom out, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified which turns this into more of a debate That’s what makes this interesting. That’s just my read on it.
Just reading this, this feels rushed rather than thought through and that tension shows up immediately Feels like there’s more coming here. That’s the impression it gives me.
Putting bias aside, this depends heavily on what happens next so the response doesn’t surprise me
Not gonna lie, the intention might be solid, the rollout less so We’ll see how people react over time.
Real talk, the signal is clear, the strategy less so and that friction is hard to ignore That part stands out.
Honestly, the wording alone shifts how people read this That’s the key detail here. That’s just my read on it.
Just reading this, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here which is why this is getting picked apart Others will probably see it differently.
Putting bias aside, the wording alone shifts how people read this and that’s why opinions are all over the place That’s the key detail here. Interested to see the follow-up.
At this point, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage which explains why reactions are split Not convinced this is settled yet.
From a practical angle, this solves one problem while creating another and that’s where people will push back
From my side, the signal is clear, the strategy less so
Bluntly speaking, the way this is presented changes how it lands and that’s why opinions are all over the place This probably isn’t the last word on it. At least from my perspective.
Not gonna lie, this reads stronger on paper than in practice
From my side, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome which explains why reactions are split That part stands out. Feels like an opening move, not an ending. Others will probably see it differently.
Stepping back, this feels rushed rather than thought through which is why the comments look the way they do Curious how this plays out.
If we’re being honest, the timing matters more than people admit and that’s where it gets complicated That’s just my read on it.
From a practical angle, the intention might be solid, the rollout less so
Trying to be fair, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that’s where it gets complicated That’s what changes the context. Feels like an opening move, not an ending.
Honestly, the follow-through is what will decide this
I get the idea, the signal is clear, the strategy less so
Bluntly speaking, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here so the response doesn’t surprise me This probably isn’t the last word on it.
If you zoom out, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone Others will probably see it differently.
the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here which explains why reactions are split That part stands out. Let’s see what happens next.
the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage That part stands out. This could age very differently in a week. That’s the impression it gives me.
If you zoom out, this feels more about execution than intent and that’s where people will push back Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
I get the idea, the timing matters more than people admit and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone Let’s see what happens next. Others will probably see it differently.
the signal is clear, the strategy less so which explains why reactions are split Curious how this plays out.
Stepping back, the main issue seems to be how this is handled which makes the reaction pretty predictable We’ll see how people react over time. At least from my perspective.
Bluntly speaking, the direction makes sense but the details are messy which explains why reactions are split This probably isn’t the last word on it.
At this point, the wording alone shifts how people read this and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s what changes the context. This probably isn’t the last word on it. Others will probably see it differently.
From a practical angle, the signal is clear, the strategy less so which is why this is getting picked apart That part stands out.
the main issue seems to be how this is handled and that’s why opinions are all over the place Hard to say where this lands long term.
Trying to be fair, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome and that’s why opinions are all over the place That’s what makes this interesting. Curious how this plays out. At least from my perspective.
Trying to be fair, this feels rushed rather than thought through which makes the reaction pretty predictable Feels like there’s more coming here. That’s just my read on it.
From a neutral view, this feels like a half-step, not a full move That’s the key detail here. At least from my perspective.
If you zoom out, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage and that’s where the disagreement starts This probably isn’t the last word on it. That’s just my read on it.
there’s a lot said here but not much clarified and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone Let’s see what happens next. At least from my perspective.
Honestly, the direction makes sense but the details are messy This could age very differently in a week. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
At first glance, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome and that’s the part people are stuck on That’s what changes the context.
To be fair, the intention might be solid, the rollout less so and that’s why opinions are all over the place That’s what makes this interesting.
Not gonna lie, the direction makes sense but the details are messy which makes the reaction pretty predictable That’s just how it reads to me. At least from my perspective.
From the outside, the way this is presented changes how it lands and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone This probably isn’t the last word on it. That’s the impression it gives me.
Honestly, the main issue seems to be how this is handled which is why this is getting picked apart That part stands out. Time will tell.
Putting bias aside, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified Feels like there’s more coming here. That’s just my read on it.
Trying to be fair, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here and that’s the part people are stuck on Hard to say where this lands long term. Others will probably see it differently.
the way this is presented changes how it lands and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone That’s what changes the context. Time will tell. At least from my perspective.
Without overthinking it, the signal is clear, the strategy less so and that’s the part people are stuck on Feels like there’s more coming here. That’s the impression it gives me.
From the outside, this solves one problem while creating another so the response doesn’t surprise me That’s what makes this interesting. Interested to see the follow-up. That’s the impression it gives me.
To be fair, this feels more about execution than intent and that’s what people are responding to That’s what changes the context. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
On the surface, this comes across more reactive than planned which makes the reaction pretty predictable
the way this is presented changes how it lands Not convinced this is settled yet. That’s the impression it gives me.
On the surface, the direction makes sense but the details are messy and that tension shows up immediately That’s just how it reads to me.
this solves one problem while creating another That’s the impression it gives me.
On the surface, this feels like a half-step, not a full move so the response doesn’t surprise me This could age very differently in a week.
Trying to be fair, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome which makes the reaction pretty predictable Not convinced this is settled yet.
If you zoom out, the logic is there, but the execution is uneven Interested to see the follow-up.
the intention might be solid, the rollout less so so the response doesn’t surprise me That’s what changes the context. That’s just how it reads to me. That’s the impression it gives me.
Just reading this, this comes across more reactive than planned which turns this into more of a debate That part stands out. Hard to say where this lands long term.
this depends heavily on what happens next which turns this into more of a debate That part stands out. Others will probably see it differently.
Putting bias aside, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage and that’s where people will push back That’s the key detail here. Others will probably see it differently.
From a practical angle, this feels more about execution than intent That’s the key detail here. Feels like an opening move, not an ending. At least from my perspective.
If we’re being honest, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome Not convinced this is settled yet. That’s just my read on it.
At first glance, this reads stronger on paper than in practice and that’s where people will push back That’s what makes this interesting. That’s just how it reads to me. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
the wording alone shifts how people read this and that’s where people will push back That’s what makes this interesting. Curious how this plays out.
From a practical angle, this feels more about execution than intent and that’s where people will push back That’s just how it reads to me. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
Looking at this, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage
the follow-through is what will decide this which makes the reaction pretty predictable Not convinced this is settled yet.
this feels rushed rather than thought through and that friction is hard to ignore That’s what changes the context.
From a practical angle, the signal is clear, the strategy less so This could age very differently in a week. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage That’s what makes this interesting. This could age very differently in a week. At least from my perspective.
Without overthinking it, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that friction is hard to ignore Hard to say where this lands long term.
this depends heavily on what happens next That part stands out. Time will tell.
Stepping back, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified so the response doesn’t surprise me
From a practical angle, the direction makes sense but the details are messy and that’s why opinions are all over the place That’s just how it reads to me.
From the outside, the way this is presented changes how it lands and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s the key detail here. Hard to say where this lands long term.
Honestly, this reads stronger on paper than in practice That’s the key detail here.
Looking at this, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage
From where I sit, this comes across more reactive than planned and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone This could age very differently in a week. That’s just my read on it.
From a practical angle, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome and that’s why opinions are all over the place
To be fair, this feels like a half-step, not a full move which explains why reactions are split Not convinced this is settled yet. Others will probably see it differently.
Bluntly speaking, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified Time will tell.
Trying to be fair, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that’s where it gets complicated That’s what changes the context. Feels like an opening move, not an ending.
this feels rushed rather than thought through which turns this into more of a debate Feels like there’s more coming here. That’s the impression it gives me.
If we’re being honest, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified which is why this is getting picked apart That part stands out. Interested to see the follow-up.
If we’re being honest, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage
From the outside, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified This probably isn’t the last word on it.
From the outside, this solves one problem while creating another and that’s why opinions are all over the place Curious how this plays out. At least from my perspective.
From my side, the intention might be solid, the rollout less so and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s the key detail here.
there’s a gap between the message and the outcome That part stands out.
If we’re being honest, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here
the direction makes sense but the details are messy Time will tell.
the logic is there, but the execution is uneven and that’s where it gets complicated Time will tell.
If you zoom out, the way this is presented changes how it lands Others will probably see it differently.
this comes across more reactive than planned and that’s the part people are stuck on Curious how this plays out.
the intention might be solid, the rollout less so which makes the reaction pretty predictable Hard to say where this lands long term.
the way this is presented changes how it lands This could age very differently in a week. That’s the impression it gives me.
Looking at this, the timing matters more than people admit and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone That’s what makes this interesting. Curious how this plays out.
this depends heavily on what happens next That’s the key detail here.
Trying to be fair, the timing matters more than people admit which is why the comments look the way they do Feels like there’s more coming here.
Stepping back, this solves one problem while creating another That part stands out. Feels like an opening move, not an ending.
From where I sit, the follow-through is what will decide this That’s what makes this interesting.
I get the idea, the follow-through is what will decide this which makes the reaction pretty predictable That’s the impression it gives me.
From a practical angle, the main issue seems to be how this is handled and that’s where it gets complicated
the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage Curious how this plays out. Others will probably see it differently.
the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here and that’s where it gets complicated That’s the key detail here. That’s just how it reads to me.
Without overthinking it, the follow-through is what will decide this
From my side, this feels more about execution than intent which explains why reactions are split
Just reading this, this feels rushed rather than thought through Others will probably see it differently.
Looking at this, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome That’s what makes this interesting. That’s just how it reads to me.
At first glance, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
Bluntly speaking, this reads stronger on paper than in practice and that friction is hard to ignore Let’s see what happens next.
the signal is clear, the strategy less so and that tension shows up immediately That’s the key detail here.
Looking at this, this feels rushed rather than thought through and that friction is hard to ignore That’s the key detail here. Time will tell.
Putting bias aside, this depends heavily on what happens next and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone That’s the key detail here. Others will probably see it differently.
Stepping back, the logic is there, but the execution is uneven which is why this is getting picked apart That’s what changes the context.
At this point, the timing matters more than people admit and that friction is hard to ignore That’s what makes this interesting. Interested to see the follow-up.
this depends heavily on what happens next That part stands out. Not convinced this is settled yet.
From my side, the main issue seems to be how this is handled which turns this into more of a debate Feels like there’s more coming here.
From a practical angle, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified and that’s what people are responding to
this comes across more reactive than planned Feels like an opening move, not an ending.
this depends heavily on what happens next which turns this into more of a debate Curious how this plays out.
If you zoom out, this feels rushed rather than thought through That’s the impression it gives me.
To be fair, this feels rushed rather than thought through so the response doesn’t surprise me That’s the key detail here. Others will probably see it differently.
the way this is presented changes how it lands Let’s see what happens next.
Just reading this, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage which explains why reactions are split
Bluntly speaking, this depends heavily on what happens next This could age very differently in a week.
this comes across more reactive than planned and that’s where people will push back
the wording alone shifts how people read this so the response doesn’t surprise me That’s what makes this interesting. That’s just how it reads to me.
From my side, the follow-through is what will decide this and that’s what people are responding to
At this point, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone That’s the key detail here. Hard to say where this lands long term. Others will probably see it differently.
Trying to be fair, the wording alone shifts how people read this and that’s where it gets complicated
this solves one problem while creating another and that’s where it gets complicated That’s the impression it gives me.
Putting bias aside, the intention might be solid, the rollout less so and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s what changes the context. That’s just how it reads to me.
this comes across more reactive than planned and that’s the part people are stuck on Curious how this plays out.
At first glance, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage which turns this into more of a debate At least from my perspective.
Looking at this, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified
From the outside, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that’s why opinions are all over the place That’s what makes this interesting. Feels like there’s more coming here.
the direction makes sense but the details are messy Let’s see what happens next. At least from my perspective.
the way this is presented changes how it lands and that’s where the disagreement starts We’ll see how people react over time.
Just reading this, the signal is clear, the strategy less so which makes the reaction pretty predictable That’s what makes this interesting. Not convinced this is settled yet. That’s just my read on it.
If we’re being honest, the timing matters more than people admit which is why the comments look the way they do That part stands out. Let’s see what happens next.
Not gonna lie, the timing matters more than people admit which explains why reactions are split Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
From a practical angle, this feels like a half-step, not a full move which is why the comments look the way they do That part stands out. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
From a neutral view, this feels rushed rather than thought through and that’s where people will push back At least from my perspective.
the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage and that’s the part people are stuck on That’s what makes this interesting. Feels like an opening move, not an ending. Others will probably see it differently.
the timing matters more than people admit and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s just how it reads to me. Others will probably see it differently.
From a practical angle, this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that tension shows up immediately That’s the impression it gives me.
Bluntly speaking, this reads stronger on paper than in practice so the response doesn’t surprise me That’s just how it reads to me.
Real talk, this feels rushed rather than thought through That’s the key detail here.
On the surface, the signal is clear, the strategy less so and that’s why opinions are all over the place Not convinced this is settled yet.
Trying to be fair, this feels rushed rather than thought through which makes the reaction pretty predictable Feels like there’s more coming here. That’s just my read on it.
the wording alone shifts how people read this and that tension shows up immediately
From a neutral view, this comes across more reactive than planned Others will probably see it differently.
Honestly, the signal is clear, the strategy less so That’s the key detail here.
Trying to be fair, the intention might be solid, the rollout less so and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s what makes this interesting. This could age very differently in a week.
If we’re being honest, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome This could age very differently in a week.
From the outside, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here and that’s what people are responding to This could age very differently in a week.
the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here and that’s the part people are stuck on That part stands out. Curious how this plays out.
At first glance, the wording alone shifts how people read this and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone
From my side, this depends heavily on what happens next and that’s where people will push back We’ll see how people react over time. At least from my perspective.
Without overthinking it, this feels more about execution than intent and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone That’s what changes the context. Let’s see what happens next.
the logic is there, but the execution is uneven and that’s where it gets complicated That’s what makes this interesting. That’s just my read on it.
From my side, this feels more about execution than intent
From the outside, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome which makes the reaction pretty predictable That’s what makes this interesting. Feels like there’s more coming here.
Honestly, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here which is why the comments look the way they do That’s the key detail here. Time will tell.
If we’re being honest, the timing matters more than people admit which explains why reactions are split Let’s see what happens next. Others will probably see it differently.
the main issue seems to be how this is handled and that’s the part people are stuck on Others will probably see it differently.
At first glance, this solves one problem while creating another That’s just how it reads to me. Others will probably see it differently.
From the outside, this solves one problem while creating another so the response doesn’t surprise me That’s what makes this interesting. Interested to see the follow-up. That’s the impression it gives me.
the intention might be solid, the rollout less so That’s the key detail here. This probably isn’t the last word on it.
this feels more about execution than intent and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s the key detail here.
If you zoom out, the main issue seems to be how this is handled and that’s the part people are stuck on That’s the impression it gives me.
this feels more about execution than intent and that’s where people will push back That’s what changes the context. Curious how this plays out.
Honestly, this feels like a half-step, not a full move That’s the impression it gives me.
Trying to be fair, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage which explains why reactions are split That’s the key detail here.
If you zoom out, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone That’s what changes the context. Interested to see the follow-up. Others will probably see it differently.
there’s a gap between the message and the outcome and that’s where it gets complicated That’s the key detail here. That’s just my read on it.
Trying to be fair, this comes across more reactive than planned which is why the comments look the way they do This probably isn’t the last word on it.
At this point, this reads stronger on paper than in practice which explains why reactions are split That’s what changes the context. This probably isn’t the last word on it.
Not gonna lie, this feels more about execution than intent which makes the reaction pretty predictable We’ll see how people react over time.
Looking at this, the signal is clear, the strategy less so That part stands out. Curious how this plays out. That’s just my read on it.
the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage which makes the reaction pretty predictable This probably isn’t the last word on it. At least from my perspective.
Honestly, this feels more about execution than intent which turns this into more of a debate That part stands out.
To be fair, this solves one problem while creating another which is why this is getting picked apart
the timing matters more than people admit and that’s the part people are stuck on That’s the key detail here.
the direction makes sense but the details are messy and that’s what people are responding to That’s the key detail here. Let’s see what happens next.
At first glance, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage That’s what makes this interesting. Interested to see the follow-up. At least from my perspective.
If we’re being honest, this feels more about execution than intent
the follow-through is what will decide this We’ll see how people react over time. At least from my perspective.
From the outside, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here and that’s where it gets complicated That’s the impression it gives me.
Honestly, the wording alone shifts how people read this Time will tell. That’s the impression it gives me.
Without overthinking it, the signal is clear, the strategy less so That’s what changes the context. Others will probably see it differently.
Looking at this, this feels rushed rather than thought through which turns this into more of a debate This could age very differently in a week. At least from my perspective.
Without overthinking it, this feels like a half-step, not a full move Feels like there’s more coming here.
Just reading this, the direction makes sense but the details are messy and that’s why opinions are all over the place Feels like there’s more coming here.
Looking at this, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified and that’s where the disagreement starts That’s what makes this interesting. Let’s see what happens next. Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
At first glance, this depends heavily on what happens next which is why the comments look the way they do
Without overthinking it, the framing does a lot of heavy lifting here That’s the key detail here. This could age very differently in a week.
Looking at this, the main issue seems to be how this is handled and that’s the part people are stuck on Let’s see what happens next.
If we’re being honest, the signal is clear, the strategy less so and that tension shows up immediately
Just reading this, the way this is presented changes how it lands which is why the comments look the way they do
I get the idea, this depends heavily on what happens next and that’s what people are responding to
From the outside, this reads stronger on paper than in practice That’s the key detail here. That’s just how it reads to me.
From where I sit, the main issue seems to be how this is handled and that’s where it gets complicated
Just reading this, the wording alone shifts how people read this which makes the reaction pretty predictable This probably isn’t the last word on it. That’s the impression it gives me.
Bluntly speaking, this feels rushed rather than thought through which makes the reaction pretty predictable That’s just how it reads to me. At least from my perspective.
From my side, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified and that’s why opinions are all over the place That’s what changes the context. Feels like there’s more coming here.
Stepping back, the way this is presented changes how it lands and that tension shows up immediately
From where I sit, the idea isn’t bad, but the delivery is doing damage
I get the idea, this comes across more reactive than planned Curious how this plays out.
Putting bias aside, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome and that tension shows up immediately That’s what makes this interesting. That’s the impression it gives me.
this feels rushed rather than thought through and that’s what people are responding to Feels like an opening move, not an ending. That’s just my read on it.
this reads stronger on paper than in practice Curious how this plays out. At least from my perspective.
From a neutral view, the logic is there, but the execution is uneven That’s what makes this interesting. Hard to say where this lands long term. That’s the impression it gives me.
From a neutral view, the main issue seems to be how this is handled and that’s why this won’t land the same for everyone This probably isn’t the last word on it.
At first glance, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome and that’s where people will push back
If you zoom out, the follow-through is what will decide this That’s what changes the context. Curious how this plays out.
Trying to be fair, this feels rushed rather than thought through That’s just how it reads to me.
If you zoom out, there’s a gap between the message and the outcome That part stands out. That’s the impression it gives me.
this feels like a half-step, not a full move and that’s the part people are stuck on Hard to say where this lands long term.
If you zoom out, the intention might be solid, the rollout less so and that tension shows up immediately That part stands out. We’ll see how people react over time. At least from my perspective.
From the outside, there’s a lot said here but not much clarified which explains why reactions are split That’s the key detail here. This could age very differently in a week.
this reads stronger on paper than in practice Let’s see what happens next. Others will probably see it differently.
this reads stronger on paper than in practice and that’s the part people are stuck on Could be wrong, but that’s how it comes across.
this feels rushed rather than thought through That’s what changes the context. Feels like there’s more coming here.
From the outside, this depends heavily on what happens next which is why the comments look the way they do Interested to see the follow-up. That’s just my read on it.
the timing matters more than people admit and that’s why opinions are all over the place That’s what changes the context.
Just reading this, this comes across more reactive than planned which turns this into more of a debate This could age very differently in a week.
the main issue seems to be how this is handled That’s what makes this interesting.
If we’re being honest, the way this is presented changes how it lands and that tension shows up immediately